TroilusQuestionandAnswerPage
From Wyclif
The Dictys Papyrus
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Several of you have asked for a page where you could ask and answer your own questions about the poem, so here it is.
Here are a few good questions to consider. It will be interesting to hear different opinions. Why is the author's pen quaking in the proem?(Book IV) Why do you think there is no proem for Book V? Explain the narrator allusion to Penelope and Alceste. Sunflower
The "kankedort" search brought me to a site that defines odd words that may stump today’s readers. The site can be found at http://hosting.uaa.alaska.edu/afdtk/Emporia.htm -Dell 2-20-06
I ran into this word while I was reading a book for a history research paper. The work that I was reading was weritten in 1840's I think. I wonder when the word was no longer used? Annette Cole 2-23-06
Is the author's pen quaking because of what is about to come? In the proem, the author also talks about Fortune,who betrays all and lures you onto her wheel. Does Criseyde sleep with her uncle?? I looked it up on the internet to clarify, and I found a site that said some critics say it was incest,and some say it was not??(L Underwood 2-21-06)
I feel that it could be concidered incest, but was it a common thing in families at this time period or was he pointing out something that happened behind closed doors? Annette Cole 2-23-06
I believe as far as the literature is concerned it would make a huge difference as to whether Criseyde actually slept with her uncle or if she didn't. Woudn't that affect whether she was "faithful" to Troilus? Just curious? J.J. Johnson 2-26-06
Can you find the sites you were looking at and put their URL's here? Remember, too, that internet sources must be carefully evaluated for their reliability. Should we devote a few minutes in class to ways to determine the value of internet sources?CW
I have found and read several articles referring to the incest as well. Pandarus worked so hard to get Troilus and Criseyde together it would be heartbreaking to find him involved with his niece. Here is a link to one article in particular that compares other versions- http://www.geocities.com/growonder/chaucertroilus.html
Critic and poet: what Lydgate and Henryson did to Chaucer's "Troilus and Criseyde." Benson, C. David. I found this article interesting as it explores new twists and variations to Chaucer’s version. Also this link brings up several articles,etc. to visit.http://www.librarius.com/cantlink/trcrlink.htm. Elizabeth (AH) 2-23-06
I agree with CW, we do need to consider what is a good reliable internet source, I generally use university or library webpages for academic work. On the issue of Panderus, I guess I can't help but look at his name and think of the word "Pander" and that exactly is what Panderus is, a go-between for the lovers. Is Chaucer playing with the idea of a sinister "go-betweener" with unhealthy interests--Chaucer's choice of names for the uncle must be with this very purpose in mind. To make the audience/reader think about the nature of a "pander". It should be noted that I looked at the noun use of the word "Pander" but it could also be used as a verb, as to pander something or someone, is similar to selling them. Nomenclature of literary characters has always interested me. Silverluna, 2-23-06
I always thought that the term pander came from the character of Panderus in either Chaucer or Shakespeare not the other way around. His actions in both works attempt to appeal to the base emotions of Troilus, almost as if he were trying to convince Troilus to love Criseyde (Jacob Richard)
I agree about the internet sources...is it true that sources that end with edu are GENERALLY safer than .com's?? I can't locate the one I originally consulted before asking the question, but it ended with edu. I hadn't thought about Panderus' name...very interesting. L Underwood 2-23-06
[I am pretty sure that even though we find Pandarus's name spelled in a variety of ways in the poem, the vowel in the second syllable is always an a. I'd like to invite someone to check the etymology of pander.]CW
Is love doomed to fail when Fortune's messenger is a man? Should love find itself and not be mediated? I believe Criseyde was guilted into loving Troilus and when her heart was already open to love, it was easy for Diomede to slide into place. Although I do feel compassion for Troilus at the end, I also think he supported and urged his love to be manipulated. It was not pure. Blueridgeborn 2/23/06
I found this at dictionary.com on the word pander. It says "Middle English Pandare, character who procured for Troilus the love of Cressida in Troilus and Creseyde, poem by Geoffrey Chaucer (ca. 1342–1400)." So, it was from the story that we get pander; therefore, I would suppose that the audience did not think anything of it, being the word was not in use. M. Bonnitt 2-24-06
I looked at the OED online through the remote access of MSU's library. The first link is to Pander, n. and the second will be Pander, v. (If these links do not work for everyone, it might be only visable either with remote access, or at a university)
I liked looking at the later literary references, as Dr. Wood mentioned in class last week, the word originated with Chaucer. But that still raises the issue of what word was used before "pander" to sell someone like a pimp? Bawd looks like this: http://dictionary.oed.com.ezproxy.louislibraries.org/cgi/entry/50018586?query_type=word&queryword=bawd&first=1&max_to_show=10&sort_type=alpha&result_place=1&search_id=kSPh-XW3aLu-5776&hilite=50018586 However, the OED cites Chaucer as using this word in other works of his, a few of the tales, Friar's Tale for example: Friar's T. 54 He was A theef, and eek a somnour, and a baude [v.r. bawde]. This even occurs in Trolius, I am confused here, the Narrator sometimes would say he wouldn't use the word, but:Troylus II. 304 For me were lever, that ye, and I, and he, Were hangid, than I [i.e. Pandarus] sholde be his bawde. this use occurs. It's something to think about. Silverluna, Feb. 25th
I believe to add a poem to Book V would take away from the actual story line. Think about it, in all the other poems it foreshadows the events that are about to occur and leaves you bitting your nails to read on. Book V he left for us, as the reader, to let our minds wonder....What is going to happen? I believe it was to make us wonder why he didn't want a poem in Book V. He was right when he wanted to be listed with some of the best authors of his time and he is proving it by having us wonder over something so small as why he didn't put a poem in Book V. J.J. Johnson 2-26-06
My comment doesn't necessarily fit in with anyone else's, but I just had to share. Book IV is the first book where I didn't feel like the words were just dragging on the page; I wasn't thinking, "Can we just get on with it already?" Is it because it gets easier to read the more I read, or is it because the story gets really good after Book III? Or is it a combination of these two things? I simply can't decide, and would love some input from others. Tonya K., 2/27/06
He did put a "poem" in book V, just not in the form of a prologue. There is no prologue to book I either. However, he did include eight stanzas in the beginning of book I and six stanzas at the end of book V that parallel his prologues thematically and structurally. So the lengths of his "poems" ran (in stanzas) 8,7,7,4,6. (I REALLY wanted them to add up to 33, the number of cantos in Dante's ""Inferno."" Oh well...I even thought to include the final stanza of book IV in this analysis, but figured that would really be stretching it.) I did like the gradual reduction in the lengths of each section. Chaucer gradually distanced us from the various Greek gods and goddesses that he called upon, until in book IV he is almost terse and clearly distraught by the capriciousness of these gods. Then we see an increase in length with the
dedication to the Christian God at the end of the poem. I think this is a fascinating structure. I also went back and read all 32 stanzas together and they flow remarkably well. The only awkward movement would be between book II and book III. Read this way, these stanzas might provide insight into both Chaucer's use of deities and the characterization of the narrator. RRobin, 2/28/06
I agree with RRobin, the climax serves not only as a conclusion but a a sort of poem like the other books had.This poem(and I don't think I'm alone here)is the best of the other poems because of the power and magnitude of the tone and the wide sweeping sense of how great this story is. Invoking, as RRobin said, the pagan gods as well as the Christian God certainly gives this poem a sense of authority. As if to say, even God likes my work! Any other writer other than Chaucer saying this would sound insultingly arrogant, but in this case I think Chaucer is justified. Silverluna, 2/28/06
I am going to change the subject here to make a comment about Chaucer. We get the impressions from what we know about his life that he was unhappy in his marriage to Phillipa. I think it a distinct possibility that as he writes his feelings of unhappiness in his own marriage spill into these works. I make note to the lines 1030-36 where Criseyde speaks of the feelings of jealousy and how there are many kinds of jealousy. I wonder if this parallels his own life in some way as well as many of his other works. Someone care to comment? Elizabeth(ah) 3-2-06
We are spilling into the Intrusive Narrator a bit here, but of course it is a possibility. And I do not say this to be dismissive of your idea (I think its actually very astute) but because I really want to believe that Chaucer had much more artistic control over his work than to let his personal bitterness spill into his masterpiece as an occasional interruption of his work. In fact CW mentioned that critics had even postulated that Chaucer had "written himself into a corner" and was a "little in love with Criseyde himself..." Isn't that the brilliance of the intrusive narrator? By falling in love with Criseyde himself, he validates Troilus' love and makes her betrayal all the more perplexing and heart-wrenching. Chaucer performed an amazing turn with this character. The tragedy isn't merely a betrayal. Its that this rich character is maligned through history. And we feel sorry for her! Do we ever feel sorry for Troilus? Don't you want to think all of that is "on purpose?" 03-02-06 RRobin.
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